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Sun, Apr. 2nd, 2006, 05:14 pm
sparkle_shortz: Anti-racist FAQ

Your mods have been talking for some time about doing an anti-racism FAQ. lauren_riot sent me the following FAQ which was originally created by and for HipMama. As of now, it seems to exist primarily here.

I thought this would be a good thing to post either way, but might also jump-start our own FAQ project. So please, read, and comment with any suggestions on what you think works/doesn't work about this (aside from the obviously specific parenting orientation), and suggest other questions that should be in our FAQ. Thanks!

Anti-racism FAQ


Why didn't someone just answer my question instead of sending me here?

Because you're not alone in having these questions. These questions are important, but it has proven disruptive to the hipMama community to constantly have to put aside other conversations in order to answer basic questions about racism. It is exhausting for the community to keep responding to repetitive questions, especially given the nature of the Internet, where it is impossible to distinguish between visitors, potential community members, and troublemaking trolls. Because you're not the first person to ask these questions and certainly won't be the last, we decided to put some of the most frequently asked questions into a single, easily accessible document.

Shouldn't hipMama be more interested in educating and reaching out to people instead of labeling everyone racist and making them feel unwelcome?

This community is anti-racist, which means, in part, that it does not exist solely for white people. Our commitment to anti-racism means that individual education is less of a priority for us than the anti-racist integrity of our community, which includes making sure that people of color (POC) feel welcome.

Isn't that awfully politically correct?

Conservatives have corrupted the phrase "politically correct" as a dismissive response to suggestions that the existing culture of white power and privilege needs critical examination. Because this community is actively engaged in thinking critically about the dominant culture, accusations of "too much" political correctness have very little meaning for us here. In case you hadn't noticed, the entire site is "politically correct!"

I’ve read here at hipMama that if I'm a feminist, I should be an anti-racist ally as well. I don't understand what one has to do with the other.

Those of us who are white and consider ourselves "feminist" need to commit ourselves to fighting racism with the same energy we put into fighting sexism, or else we are hypocrites betraying our sisters of color in their need. We can't demand that men no longer bake the cake of female oppression while cheerfully eating the cake of our sisters' oppression. That is, we can't expect men to recognize their status as oppressors of women and then expect to deny our own status as white oppressors of POC.

I don't want my child to be racist, of course. But if I just don't teach her to be racist, isn't that enough? I mean, I don't really want to teach about all this bad stuff right now - she seems so young and I don't want to introduce this topic until she brings it up to me. After all, this is a parenting community, not a political community.

We believe that the parental is political. In fact, it's a form of white privilege to want to protect white children from the ugly realities of racism when children of color don't have that luxury. The ability to claim a position of "ignorance" when it comes to the struggles of POC against racism is part of the power inherent in racism. As mamas, we have a responsibility to care about everyone's children, not just our own. As Caribbean educator, storyteller and poet Opal Palmer Adisa writes, "I want Anglo mothers to teach their children not to be racist so I don't have to constantly do emergency surgery on my child."

Aren't the so-called allies rather uppity and full of themselves, thinking they're the perfect anti-racist white people?

No one assumes that every white person coming to hipMama for the first time is going to be an expert at unlearning racism. The basics are included here because these concepts have been radical and eye-opening at some point for every white person. Because of the daily reality of white privilege, all people without color (PWOC) stand to benefit from reviewing these basics. Living anti-racist principles is an ongoing process for all PWOC.

But I'm not racist! What do you mean, I'm a racist?

We're used to thinking of the word "racist" in connection with active hatred. That allows us to assume that so long as we're not deliberately hurting anybody, we're not racist ourselves. But racism isn't just about obvious bigotry - it's also about unconscious assumptions, social preferences, norms and privileges. Some people call this "institutionalized racism" because it shows up in everything from laws to birth experiences to shopping malls. Racism, like other -isms, is about a lens through which you focus. In this case, racism means you focus solely through the lens afforded you by your race and privilege as a member of the group in power, from a platform of perspective shaped by the dominant white culture.

Environmental issues make a good parallel. Few North Americans personally clear-cut trees or pollute entire lakes and rivers with chemicals, but we also realize that just living the "normal" North American lifestyle depletes the environment. In the same way, racism and white privilege leave "footprints" on the rights and lives of POC and we need to actively work to prevent that.

Just like admitting one's impact on the environment is the first step towards living a more eco-conscious life, admitting one's racism is the first step in unlearning it. It does not mean that PWOC are terrible people; it means that PWOC have work to do.

I didn't MEAN to be racist. Why is everybody calling me that?

Remember, racism and white privilege are so entrenched that every single white person is implicated, whether or not she is actively and overtly racist. The pain of recognizing the inescapability of racism is part of the cost of racism to white people. Other personal costs include ignorance, guilt, fear, and/or discomfort around people of color who could otherwise be colleagues, lovers, or friends. Also, to the detriment of society in general, there are huge societal costs, such as the diminishment of the world's "brain trust" by devaluing or even preventing the contributions of people of color. As well, systemic inequalites caused by racism has led to a trend of the dominant culture to criminalize POC instead of adressing the social ills that plague our society in its entirety. Usually we think of racism as a problem for POC, but as the unwilling beneficiaries of racism, PWOC too are affected by it: being forced to admit this can be unpleasant and unsettling. But without recognizing that it affects everybody, whites will continue to see racism as "someone else's problem."

You might not realize that the argument you're making in a post is racist - but if other community members see racism, stop and ask yourself why. Take that opportunity to unlearn a little bit of your unconscious racism instead of getting defensive & arguing that you're NOT racist. Defensiveness is not useful because it makes the problem all about you, rather than all about racism.

How can I be racist if I have friends who are and/or have dated POC?

If you deny that you are racist on the basis of these relationships, it is a strong indicator that you have more work to do. The act of befriending or dating a POC does not exclude you from experiencing white privilege and thus benefiting from racism.

I don't have a racist bone in my body. In fact, I abhor racism. You don't know me, so how do you know what I am thinking?

One of the things liberal whites are taught is to deny racism by being "colorblind." Denying something or pretending that it doesn't exist - e.g. pretending that it doesn't matter what color people are - doesn't make it go away, however. The fact is, we do live in a racist society, and color does matter to people of color. That said, it is impossible to grow up in a racist world and not have learned racism. Having learned it doesn't automatically make you a bad person; whether you are "good" or "bad" is irrelevant. What counts is what you do about it. Also, see "What do you mean, I'm a racist?" above.

I've finally realized that I'm racist, and I sent a private message to a mother of color (MOC) to ask her to help me understand. She didn't respond/did respond and chewed me out for expecting her to educate me. What did I do wrong? How am I supposed to educate myself if the MOC won't teach me?

POC have to deal with racism every day of their lives. Asking them to educate you is asking them to deal with even more of it than they already do, and is disrespectful. This community is actively anti-racist, therefore within our community, the MOC are not solely responsible for your education. You can educate yourself by talking to other whites, reading books and magazines, and by talking to the POC you know in real life. You can also learn a lot by just listening.

So if I make a mistake, what am I supposed to do about it?

First, try to see it as a learning opportunity. Second, if you apologize, do so without defending yourself or trying to explain what you "really meant." You cannot demand forgiveness; all you can do is try to learn from the experience and do better in the future. Third, if you have decided to apologize, please think long and hard about whether you truly need to start a whole new thread for your apology. Do you really have something meaningful to say? Or are you just focusing on your own feelings rather than the goal of eradicating racism?

See "Okay, so what am I supposed to do about it?" below.

Why can't I post a racist slur if it's in quotes referring to something someone else said? (e.g. my friend said the _____ word the other day and I was so upset I just let her have it...). Why can't I use the word to illustrate the actual conversation?

No matter what the context, slurs are offensive, and hurtful to hear or read. Part of creating an anti-racist community is refusing to perpetuate words that hold negative power in real life. Remember, this community is committed to the active exclusion of racism and there are community members who may well have been called these slurs in real life. What seems like an intellectual discussion to you may be extremely painful to someone else.

Why is it okay to use the term "POC?"

Because it's a term that people of color have chosen to identify themselves. Basically, it boils down to calling people what they want to be called.

"Reverse Racism" does not exist

I experienced reverse racism as a white person at work/when I lived abroad/in a community of color, etc. Where do I go for support?

"Reverse racism" is a term created and used by white people to deny the fact that they experience white privilege. Those in denial use the term reverse racism to refer to hostile behavior by POC toward whites, and to criticize affirmative action policies which allegedly give "preferential treatment" to POC over whites. Resistance to or an attempt to correct racism is not racism; it is a reaction to oppressive conditions. Under global white supremacy, there is no such thing as "reverse racism."

What do you MEAN, reverse racism doesn't exist?

Racism = power + prejudice. Since "reverse racism" would require the victims of racism to have more power than the people who are being racist, it is a nonsensical phrase.

White people are raised to assume that anything in the world is theirs by birthright, and that other people are treated the same way as we are. The truth is that white people are given many things that POC are not - from jobs to smiling welcomes to the benefit of the doubt. When PWOC lose these things, the loss is often mistaken for racism or discrimination. Usually what is really lost is a piece of unearned race-based privilege, which white people are not used to functioning without.

About the Mamas of Color Forum

I'm poor/I'm a woman/I'm marginalized. Aren't I just as much a victim of discrimination as anyone else? Why do the women of color get special treatment? Aren't we all in the same boat?

You can be oppressed in one way and still have privilege in other areas. White women are oppressed by the patriarchy, but the world still gives them the privilege of being white. hipMama works to provide a safe space for marginalized people, but women of color will still be marginalized even here unless we actively work to prevent that.

Why do the MOC get to have their own space and the MWOC don't? That's not fair!

This is essentially a "reverse racism" argument. The fact is that because white women are in the majority here, the whole space is effectively "white." The MOC have their own space because some MWOC have repeatedly shown that they cannot respect the MOC by repeatedly trampling over and dominating conversations, so a safe space has been reserved where the MOC can have autonomy without being challenged.

I'm white. Can I post in the Mamas of Color forum?

No. The Mamas of Color forum is for self-identified mothers of color only.

Why not?

hipMama exists to provide a safe space for marginalized groups. After various attempts at providing a safe space for MOC, we as a community have concluded that this is the best solution.

But, isn't that racist?

No. Racism = power + prejudice. The fact that the MOC have a space where they do not have to negotiate the institutionalized racism of the dominant culture is not racist. It is, in fact, anti-racist. Fair does not mean that everyone gets treated the same. Fair means everyone gets what they need.

What if I am mixed race? Can I post in the Mamas of Color Forum?

You may post in the MOC forum if you define yourself as a POC. If you think of yourself as a white person with mixed ancestry, then the MOC forum is not for you.

I am white but my children are of color, can I post on the MOC forum?

No. You can post in the Multi-Racial Parenting forum, which is designed for mixed-race families. The MOC forum is specifically reserved for women of color.

Does this mean I can't read those posts either?

There's no official rule against reading the threads in the MOC forum. Some people think it's more respectful of the space not to eavesdrop. Others don't think of it as eavesdropping but as listening respectfully to what the MOC have to say. If you do choose to read in that forum, please remember that you are very much a guest in someone else's space. Do not start threads in the main area asking women of color to account for or explain things you've read in the forum.

What does it mean to be an Anti-Racist Ally?

Okay, so what am I supposed to do about racism?

· Believe what POC say about their experiences of racism.
· Acknowledge to yourself the mistakes you have made rather than asking POC to forgive you for them.
· Set aside your defensiveness and desire not to be considered a racist.
· Realize that the feelings and experiences POC have about racism are more important than your own. Taking the focus away from how POC feel about racism makes the issue of racism all about the feelings of white people - which is just another instance of white privilege.
· Become an anti-racist ally.

What's an anti-racist ally?

A white anti-racist ally is someone who accepts her own role as a member of the racist social structure and, in the face of that knowledge, works to challenge the assumptions that come along with her white privilege. She recognizes that white people must learn to identify and confront racism when they encounter it, and then open up dialogue with other whites in order for progress to be made against racism.

It is important to remember that white allies are accountable to POC. This means that they accept the leadership of POC and recognize that, when it comes to racism, the experiences of the oppressed are more reliable and more important than the feelings of the oppressors. It is ultimately counterproductive to become an anti-racist ally in order to try to absolve yourself of guilt because ultimately the point of anti-racism is to strive for justice, not to make yourself feel better. Also, guilt can impair judgment, and paying more attention to your own guilt than to the experiences of POC means that ultimately you think anti-racism is all about you, which it isn't.

White anger at racism is an important tool in the fight against white privilege, but the existence of that privilege means that when it comes to racism, white anger is never more important than the anger of POC. Focusing on white anger at the expense of POC anger is just another example of white privilege in action.

To be an active ally of the MOC of this community, say something when you see a racist remark. Don't wait for someone else to take care of it. Don't apologize for the person who makes the racist remarks. Racism is offensive whether or not it was consciously intended, so saying that someone "didn't mean it" suggests that sometimes, racist language is okay. In this community, it's not. Keep in mind that at this site, the feelings of the racist are never more important than the person whose feelings are hurt by the racism.

In the process of becoming an effective anti-racist ally, everyone falls somewhere on this spectrum:

Spectrum of Awareness (reprinted with permission of Progroup, Inc.)

Naive - This person acts with no knowledge or awareness of biases and prejudices and their impact on others. Once someone has pointed out your actions, you can no longer be considered naive.
Perpetuator - This person is aware of biases and prejudices but continues these behaviors and reinforces and rewards bigotry.
Avoider - This person is aware of biases and prejudices but tolerates disrespectful behavior by "playing it safe".
Change Agent - This person takes an active role in creating an environment that helps all people excel. (This is where we all should strive to be)
Fighter - This person attacks all actions and confronts all behaviors and is always on the look out for injustice. This person is combative and burns out often.

But what about respect? Do you have to be rude about confronting racism?

The issue of respect, as it applies to people who make racist comments here and the POC on the receiving end, is that they have not given POC the respect that they deserve. Racism is not respectful, whether you put it "politely" or not. It is hypocritical in the extreme to ask the oppressed to be polite and grant respect to their oppressors. Resistance is necessary; it is not rude.

As aspiring change agents, white anti-racists should ideally strive to educate as best they can, but the experiences of the oppressed have priority over the experiences of their oppressors. Educating is not the same as apologizing for racism, and change agents do not expect POC to sugarcoat their righteous anger. One of the privileges that come with being white is that it isn't "socially acceptable" to point out privilege or bias; PWOC usually have the luxury of choosing whether they will address the issue, regardless of how much their willful ignorance hurts those they oppress.

Racism is a disease that white people carry. It is not an illness that POC need to overcome.

About the FAQ
The Anti-racism FAQ was a collaborative effort of the hipmama.com hipTalk discussion boards, with questions and answers written by community members or taken from actual conversations with newcomers to our community.

The Anti-racism FAQ was edited by Monica Finn, Lisa George, Nadine Mondestin, Tedra Osell, Daria Penta, Michelle Scheidel, and Gzifa Williams. The complementary glossary and recommended reading list was edited by Monica Finn and can be found at http://www.piercer.com/glossary.html and http://www.piercer.com/morereading.html respectively. [N.B. this site is down--sparkle_shortz]

Thanks to Progroup, Inc. for permission to reprint the Spectrum of Awareness.

@ anti-copyright 2002 Mamaground Railroad Anti-Racist Collective.

This document may be freely distributed if done so according to all of the following conditions:
· this document is used solely for educational purposes
· this document is not used for monetary profit in any way ...
· this document is reproduced in its entirety
· document contributors are acknowledged
· this anti-copyright notice is reproduced with this document

Sun, Apr. 2nd, 2006 10:35 pm (UTC)

I want to read it a couple of more times with an even more precise analytical cap on, but right now, I like it. And I can see keeping some of the parenting stuff because there are people who believe that because they have children of color (or because they are dating someone of color) that... and I think this provides them not only with a place, but with an idea of how to organize themselves.

(I have never heard of hipMama! This is so great and on-point... A FAQ, hmm! Would have saved me from YEARS or repetition!)

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 12:46 am (UTC)

I am delighted to see this reposted as a catalyst here. I was not part of hipMama but the Mama-tron and Girl-mom bulletin board communities that came after it. I witnessed Mama-tron implode because of racism. This FAQ was the start of my un-learning. I am excited to see how it flies in this community. Recently I quoted it in the single parents community and got no comments. It was eerie. And I noticed that it only lived in that thread at girl-mom too.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 05:27 am (UTC)
mendemama: I was part of hipMama

I was one of the mods of color. I can't say that the FAQ did much to stop the original hipmama.com board from imploding. People spent so much time and energy putting that together, yet these women couldn't see past their own racism and decided to actively destroy the board rather than deal with their own shit.

It's depressing what happened there but I know others began their path either there or at mamatron.

It will be interesting to see. . .

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 05:31 am (UTC)
sparkle_shortz: Re: I was part of hipMama

That's too bad. It kind of read that way between the lines :(

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 02:06 am (UTC)

So, this is what I had from a new membership add. it was written up quickly and the hip mama FAQ says most of it much better than i do. figured i should put it here, though, so that it would be archived.
. . . . . .

FAQ: What do you mean all white people are racist?

This idea stems from a big picture analysis that focuses on white privilege and racism as institutions. Within Euro-American societies all white people benefit from racism and, in this sense, all white people can be said to be racist. Many white activists involved in anti-oppression and anti-racism work embrace this idea becuase it rings true with their experiences of being uncomfortably, irrevocably caught up in systems of white privilege, whether they want to be or not. We can consciously work against racist behavoirs and institutions everyday but, for the time being, in present society, this work can not annull the priviledges we receive or the unconscious indoctrination we have received (and continue to receive) from our racist society. This belief does not deny the possibilty that in the theoretical future, in a non-racist society, white people can be non-racist.

Basically, an understanding of all white people as racist allows for white activists to look beyond thier individual lives and actions to larger systemic issues. This is an especially potent move within Euro-American societies where individualism is so highly valued. All of this said, some people, like those who follow the Race Traitor philosphy, do not agree with the statement that all white people are automatically racist. Noel Ignatiev and other Race Traitors beleive that white activists can and should revoke their white privileges. There has been healthy debate between these two sides as to whether or not this is possible.
(Deleted comment)

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 03:38 pm (UTC)

Thanks! Oh, and I wish we could claim credit for the FAQ--this is hipMama's.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 03:57 pm (UTC)
the_automatik: thanks

Great stuff! I am bookmarking this and will use as a reference in the future.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 09:27 pm (UTC)

What seems like an intellectual discussion to you may be extremely painful to someone else.

I've encountered this before, as a queer, as a woman, and arguing against another white woman when debating racism. She wanted the make the argument that it was theoretically possible for there to be a non-racist white person. In all three cases that where I was arguing why intellectualizing a debate is bad, I found that I had difficulty forming my argument and convincing the other person. I get the sense that it's a part of privilege: one can only intellectualize an *ism and discuss it in the abstract if they are not hurt by it. Thus, I think it would be beneficial to have it in the FAQ, so that anyone finding themself in that position can be more successful.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 09:29 pm (UTC)

So you're suggesting we include something in the FAQ like "But couldn't there theoretically be a non-racist white person?" and countering it with the things you frame here about intellectualizing being a privileged position? Just so I'm clear.

You might also be interested in what Xandi wrote in her comment about that theoretical situation.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 11:22 pm (UTC)

Not just in that specific case. People in the position of privilege always seem to want to discuss such and such oppression in an abstract way, not seeming to realize that it effects real, living people. "Semantics" is a word that gets thrown in a lot. Or they're start talking about "logic" or "statistics". Or they're insist that the topic at hand be discussed in a vaccuum. The result is that they derail the conversation and invalidate the experiences of those that are actually oppressed.

Arguing for the existance of a non-racist white person is one example, and one that I've encountered personally. Hm...let me think. Anytime someone wants to discuss something without involving the racial aspect is another example. Like if someone were to argue, "But theoretically, if we had a non-racist white person, they could make a movie involving blackface without it being offensive, couldn't they? We should consider the posibility." (Not a quote.) Or (also not a quote), "If we lived in a non-racist society, then black people could racist against white people, yes?" In all the cases, reality is ignored, and being able to ignore reality is a privilege.

Mon, Apr. 3rd, 2006 11:26 pm (UTC)

Those are great points. Thanks!

Tue, Apr. 4th, 2006 12:12 am (UTC)

I think there are two questions on the table here.

One is the general ethic that we should be advocating for use in the world. As folks have said, there are many situations in interracial dialogue where whites tend to intellectualize, and PoCs experience it as racism. Whites need to become aware of this and learn to avoid the error.

In the context of this forum, however, I think this is not the right ethic. sabonasi is right to hint that whites often make the intellectualizing move simply as a way of protecting themselves from having to think about the realities of injustice. When that happens here, we should call folks on it. But I know that often whites intellectualize these questions in a genuine effort to become more sophisticated about how the machinery of racism works. If you read the discussion of the use of blackface that sabonasi alludes to, you can see me doing exactly that—"given that white artists using blackface is wrong, can we better describe exactly where the wrongness is and how it works?"

These are not questions I should ask in a fundamentally interracial or PoC-focused forum! PoCs' experience of intellectualization as racist trumps whatever greater understanding this might lead to for me or other whites. As we often say, whites need to do the work of pursing better understanding of racism, but they need to do it in a space that does not infringe on PoCs. As I understand it, this forum is intended to be such a space, where whites do that work amongst one another to become more sophisticated and more effectively antiracist.

Now this is not an exclusively intrawhite space. PoC allies also participate in this forum. I know that I am not alone in being enormously appreciative of the insight and patience that those folks bring here, and hesitate to make any demands of them. But I do think that any PoC allies should understand the purposes of this particular forum, addressed to whites unlearning their racism, mean that the ground rules must necessarily differ from those of a truly open or interracial forum. I believe that acceptance of some intellectual unpacking of how racism works is one such rule. And I think that there is a significant discussion to be had about other such rules.

This makes me concerned about the hipMama FAQ. It has many virtues, and does a good job of describing some things that this forum should be teaching about racism. I agree with folks here who want to borrow heavily from it as a resource that explains a number of issues well. But it also defines ground rules for fundamentally interracial or PoC-oriented forums, which I argue must necessarily be different in some important ways from the ground rules in this forum.

Tue, Apr. 4th, 2006 01:21 am (UTC)

Are you referring to the part about the "Mamas of Color forum" and its boundaries? I wouldn't apply those guidelines (in our FAQ) towards a community like debunkingwhite. I might, however, say something similar about other LJ communities (blackfolk, for instance) that, if the FAQ project is successful, might refer people to the FAQ (the way they currently refer people to debunkingwhite itself).

Re. intellectualizing. I think where it goes right is where it is not afraid to interrogate the intellectualizer's own complicity in the mechanic/s of racism being investigated. I.e., "given that blackface is wrong, why and how is it wrong and how does that implicate me in having consumed it or in being fascinated by it now?" That might be a good point to bring into any discussion of "PC" accusations we might put into the FAQ, too. Humans have a very powerful taboo-resistant impulse, so I'm reluctant to adopt any strategy to dealing with oppressive acts/representations by declaring them "just wrong"--it denies their history and why they arose and makes them more interesting rather than less. The trick is in seeing that the taboo is not really a taboo and that these things are proscribed out of an ethical obligation to honor people of color, not to "follow the rules" of dominant society.

I think I've officially become incoherent now...

Tue, Apr. 4th, 2006 01:40 am (UTC)

Maybe I'm incoherent too, since I agree with you.

Given that it's desirable to produce a FAQ for reference in our discussions that, if well done, can become a resource to others, I think that I'm advocating a FAQ broken into a couple of components. One would be a FAQs about racism itself. The second would be about the purpose and definition of this forum.

Tue, Apr. 4th, 2006 01:47 am (UTC)
jonathankorman: And: Blackface

Thanks for putting your finger on something I had failed to express. I saw myself reacting out of the taboo, just as you say, and wanted to dig into what is really at stake.
(Deleted comment)

Wed, Apr. 5th, 2006 12:50 am (UTC)

I am a part of girlmom (hipmama's little sister). These FAQ have been frequently linked to in our disscussions over there despite the fact that rumor has it they contributed to the breakdown of hipmama.

The disscussions we've had about race over there have been incredibly helpful and eye-opening to me. But the FAQ's were almost always used as a starting off point for discussion rather than a set of rules. Even when they were linked to we have spent a lot of time re-explaining them. They tend to work best when linked to because of a particular problem, as in when somebody needs to be called on their racism and they've never heard of anything like this. Racism = Power + Prejudice was a radical definition for me when I first heard it on girlmom. I think it's that way for a lot of the young women we get over there.

At least with girlmom, because the goal of the community is more about education and support, these conversations are almost endless. As each new batch of members come in we go over it again and again. But I think that's useful too.

Mon, Sep. 14th, 2009 11:31 pm (UTC)

This is so sexy.