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Thu, May. 15th, 2008, 09:47 pm
epilady: ARGH MOD NOTE ARGHHHHHHHHHH

OK look.

I'm reluctant to poke this eye-popping mess with a long, sharp stick, but many similar discussions have been coming up recently, and I need to reiterate:

debunkingwhite is dedicated to discussing WHITENESS, INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, and WHITE PRIVILEGE. That's it.

ANY OTHER DISCUSSIONS are definitely not appropriate for this community, and are likely to derail the conversations we are trying to have here. This community is specifically for white people to get the fuck over themselves and address their whiteness and white privilege.

When posting OR REPLYING TO ANY POST HERE, please consider the audience, the community's specific intent, and the fair to awesome potential for derailing the discussion.

General political debate, intra-POC conflicts, and other topics that do not encourage-slash-force the white members of this community to examine themselves, their whiteness, their racism, and their white privilege are not productive here, and belong somewhere else.

EVERY post should be examined and responded to with the goal of DEBUNKING WHITENESS foremost in mind. If your reply does not address this first and foremost? Please post it in another community. Or don't post it at all.

Please think carefully about engaging in a thread that may derail the conversation away from WHITENESS, INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, and WHITE PRIVILEGE. If your reply does not address these topics, there is probably a place for it, but that place is NOT Debunkingwhite.

It is all too easy for white people to wriggle out of, avoid, or imagine away their WHITENESS, INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, and WHITE PRIVILEGE. Man, white people love to have the heat on another burner so we can pat ourselves on the back and not think about our complicity in scenario XYZ. Please, do not make it any easier for the white people in this community by derailing the conversation.

Also, for the record? I don't personally believe it's in any way possible to separate institutional racism from immigration issues, particularly in a postcolonial world. Whether you agree with me or not, discussions about immigration issues in this community MUST remain focused on WHITENESS, INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, and WHITE PRIVILEGE. Please, keep other aspects in other communities so as not to derail the intentions of this community.

Thank you, and SORRY FOR ALL THE WACKY EMPHASIS CAPS OMG.

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
busted_english: What do you say about the members of color of

this community who basically disagree with your argument as well. There is no way to examine anything "regardless of race or origin", because these laws have been made specifically along the lines of race, class, and origin.

As someone who in the past has been a habitual law breaker, I really wonder how many people are faced with the decision to do something that they really don't want to do because it means danger, it means your livelihood, it means your life and they do it anyway for survival. I've been in that situation before, I have a lot of sympathy and empathy for undocumented workers.

You look at immigration and you see how hard it is to get into this country, you see the preferences given to different countries, you see preferred status given to those with wealth and education, and you say, "regardless" of that... as if the laws have not been made with this consideration. There are people who have been waiting 10-13 years to get into this country for the opportunity to participate in the American economy/dream and give back to their families or see their families again.

As someone who has lived and grew up in the projects with 16 people to an apartment, who has lived in poverty in America, seen the many disenfranchisements of poor people because of the law... I question if you really understand the seriousness of invoking "because it's the law". Undocumented workers aren't my enemy, regardless of whether someone takes a low paying job under the table the wages of the people (many in my family) in my former community are still under minimum wage when they were 40 hours a week.

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:22 pm (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

that should be work 40 hours a week and it's not because they're being exploited because they are economically disadvantaged and being exploited. There's something called the catchout, they come into poor neighborhoods and they pick up day laborers. You'll see blacks, Latinos, Asians and the poor out on that line and hustling to be chosen by people who want to exploit them who come in a variety of colors.

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:40 pm (UTC)
tanya1976: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

The members of color can disagree with my argument. I welcome it. I don't expect all of us to think the same because of our complexions. A lot of what I feel/think may not be popular since it may force introspection (which a lot of my community can not seem to deal with).

Furthermore, yes, I'm looking at those who are going through the process of waiting to become a citizen. It's tough to see them. I have students waiting. It's a smack to their faces to see the ones who aren't being the most vocal.

I don't want to make this into an intra-POC thread, but, in all honesty, a lot of the disenfranchisements of poor people came from poor choices (a small percentage is from the actual laws on the books). There aren't any laws that say drop out of school, have more children than you can provide for, etc. I grew up in the inner-city. My family stressed education and goals. Without either one of these aspects, how the hell do you expect not to live in the projects?

Yes, poverty isn't a joke. But, when the law isn't the reason why you are initially in trouble, who's at fault? After a while, accountability has to be looked at.



Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:43 pm (UTC)
likeawoman: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

I don't want to make this into an intra-POC thread, but, in all honesty, a lot of the disenfranchisements of poor people came from poor choices (a small percentage is from the actual laws on the books). There aren't any laws that say drop out of school, have more children than you can provide for, etc. I grew up in the inner-city. My family stressed education and goals. Without either one of these aspects, how the hell do you expect not to live in the projects?

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)
tanya1976: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

So, what, are you denying what I'm saying? Or, are you shocked?

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:57 pm (UTC)
likeawoman: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

I'm always shocked when I see someone who, like myself, grew up poor and yet somehow manages to soak up such nasty, self-aggrandizing, classist, bootstrapping attitudes. all that education and not a single sociology class? that shit is sick.

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:58 pm (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

::Drinks 40 ounce:: As a lazy shiftless, person with no goals and a sexually irresponsible mother I have to say I'm shocked too.

::Pumps my glock::

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:01 am (UTC)
likeawoman: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

they didn't teach me much book readin' in the trailer park and it's hard to concentrate with all the squalling brats and baying hounddogs and the mean case of bedbugs and all, but I think we agree :D

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:15 am (UTC)
lt_jim_dangle: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

haha, I wonder what those kids are looking at

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:16 am (UTC)
likeawoman: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

tanya1976's NC-17 Ayn Rand fanfic

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 02:45 pm (UTC)
delux_vivens: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

WIN!

Fri, May. 16th, 2008 11:56 pm (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

I'm not even sure what to say to this argument, because it almost seems like you're willfully ignoring that an education and goals don't exactly spell out opportunity. When I say I grew up in the projects, I don't mean the inner-city. I mean intergenerational poverty. My grandparents both had college degrees, my mom has a college degree. I'm an only child. I grew up in fucking poverty. What part of having too many kids and not wanting an education stereotype fits what happened in my life?

It's this idea that, "education" and "goals" aren't being stressed in these communities that is atrocious to me. I grew up everyday hearing that I needed to be a lawyer or a Doctor inside my school. I came home and I heard that I had to go to college. To be honest, seeing people who had gone to college not being able to get hired sort of soured me on the whole experience.

This idea that poor people don't take accountability literally is classist hogwash. You want to hear who is most caught up in "accountability" the poorest among us, because they honestly believe that if they only tried harder then life would be different. Then when life isn't different they develop hopelessness. We have over 15 million people in this country living in poverty and you're going to be hard pressed to convince me with all the studies out there that they just aren't taking responsibility for their lives. Bootstrap arguments ignore 3 things... in order for capitalism to work there needs to be someone on the bottom, poor people get trapped in generational poverty and that's entirely different than being "down on your luck for bad choices" and number 3, education doesn't equal opportunity, especially if you do not conform to cultural language and codes already in play.

You know who is really at fault? The people who take great comfort in thinking that just because they made it out, that means that anyone can do it. That smug self-righteousness that doesn't mean I have to check my place in life to see how I got here on the back, hopes, and shoulders of someone else. I have to stop myself here, before I get off the handle and shit, but honestly your opinion is one of the most classist things I've read and it's not the first time I've read it from you. You are caught in this idea of a good black vs. bad black dichotomy.

Maybe you're not aware of how it can be when you have an education and are denied opportunity, when you pass high school and don't speak English well enough, when you've had a job since you were 13 years old, when you have no jobs in your community and you have to ride the bus two hours to get to where the jobs are, only to find that the kids who live in those communities are preferred for those jobs... or maybe it just feels better to say, those people aren't trying hard enough and they don't want to get out of those situations.

Fuck that, I've been there, I've done that. I made it out, and you know what I don't have this feeling that they weren't trying hard enough and it's probably because I realize just how much it took to get out. I realize they fucking are trying trying, but I also realize that it's bigger than not wanting a job, when people like you are in hiring positions, university admissions, programs admissions.. when people already think they know why you're not succeeding because they've already put you in a neat little package about how your family got their, their sexual promiscuity, and their anti-intellectualism.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:18 am (UTC)
tanya1976: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

So, you represent all? Is that it? My experience is different from yours. You don't know one thing about my experience; yet, you want to box me in because I'm disagreeing with some aspects. You have no idea of what I've seen. I currently work in an inner-city high school and I'm the only one desiring to stay so I can help my students. Yes, contrary to what you think. I give I damn. I made it out and I came back. Excuse me, if my standards do not include being an apologist for misguided behavior.

Yes, I have family that are dealing with intergenerational poverty. Why? They made bad choices, not because they couldn't get hired, despite working their asses off. That's terrible. Yes, I'm frustrated because of the inner-workings of some in my community. There isn't a reason for 73% of black children being born in single-parents, for example. What the hell? Is that the law's fault? Or, the climbing high-school dropout rate? Is that the law's fault as well? Should one receive a high school diploma without reading or writing English correctly? No, I agree with you on that issue. I teach my students (English) every day that when they leave school, the country isn't going to give a damn about you. Furthermore, I tell them not to give it ammunition not to.

So, go right ahead. If it makes you feel better to basically call me a sell-out and classist, then so be it. But, I'm in the thick of it every day. I could easily go somewhere ritzy and get paid, but I choose to stay because I honestly give a shit about my students. Yes, I set high standards because I know how the hell hard it is out there. I'm not going to let anyone on Internet tell me otherwise. You can settle for commonality or you can reach for something greater.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:26 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

It doesn't make me feel better, I'm not demonizing you in the least. But, this idea that there's "commonality or greatness" is rhetoric. Human beings are complex, social situations are complex, the identity and history of class in this country is complex.

There isn't a reason for 73% of black children being born in single-parents, for example. What the hell? Is that the law's fault?

This isn't the law's fault, but honestly poor white people outnumber poor black people 2-1 it's a different type of poverty and a lot of those families have two parents. So I'm not buying, it's because there are no fathers in the home argument. When I referred to the law, I was specifically talking about what happens when there are no opportunities and one still needs to make money. Do you know what it's like to live in a place with no grocery store, no jobs, no daycare?

I would literally have to write a book here to explain everything that's wrong with your argument. But, I'm not I'm going to have a drink of Jack Daniels and Coke and an excellent documentary on sundown towns.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 08:34 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Now that I'm sober again, I'm ready to take it to you on class. I found myself saying, "Fuck you" as I looked at your answers, and you know why? Because you're talking about moving from "lower middle" to "more middle". I grew up in fucking poverty, not a mixed income neighborhood. I grew up in real live fucking poverty, not just the inner city, so moving from real live fucking poverty to the middle class is no easy step. It's not about being apologist, it's that you're literally speaking out of your ass, not based on fact but on old recycled statistics and the idea of rugged individualism.

Your attitude right now is exactly that of white people when we tell them there's a problem with race in this country. What's the first thing that comes out of their mouths? I know about racism, I went through this, I know about this.. you can't tell me how much I know.. you're relying on racism when it's really this that's the problem... This is what you sound like in regard to class. I took a sociology class and learned about race, but I didn't agree with it. The bottom line is, you want equality for you and others like you, you've already bought into the good vs. bad black dichotomy.

It's not that I don't think that you give a damn, I think that your give a damn is with a heavy hand of condescension and I've had teachers who were abusive to me in order to show me "what the real world would be like", overwhelmingly they were black people who were (lower and medium) middle class living paycheck to paycheck and tried to teach me to take responsibility by denigrating my name, my culture, my family, and my history.

So yes, overwhelmingly I find myself saying fuck you. You don't know what it's like to live in real live fucking poverty, and I know about you because you just released that. It's an entirely different ballgame when you come from nothing to get something, than when you come from a little to get a little more. I grew up in poverty in the fucking South and it's not all fucking peaches and cream, some people don't even fucking have shoes and you're talking about bootstrapping. That should let you know about the kind of privilege you're living in that you can cast stones from a place that you've never been and never seen and then tell us how we're not doing it right.

It's interesting that as people become more educated about class they are less likely to make blanket generalizations like you're doing right now, because inevitably they always learn that the common wisdom surrounding such ideas are usually inadequate and lack the ability to take the nuance of culture and social hierarchy. So before I finish this, I just want to say one thing... I grew up in a place where murders occurred almost every night, I grew up in a place where they gave us something called "the handout", with no jobs, no daycare, no grocery store, no opportunity. I grew up in a place where my grandmother who had a college degree took a job as a fucking maid to make ends meet, where I loss everything to a fire at 16, and my story is not some fucking anomaly.. My aunt died of a heart attack and left 5 kids for my 84 year old grandma to raise. I am not some special snowflake. These are the real life stories that make up those statistics.

That's a lot fucking different from growing up in a mixed income neighborhood and I find it insulting that you could even fix your mouth to tell me how to get out of that when you've never been there. You are classist, I didn't call you a sell out. But you're not in the thick of it everyday, you're not living those children's experiences, you have no idea about our realities.

You're not in the thick of what I came from because if you were you wouldn't even fix your mouth to say the ridiculous bullshit you've typed in this post.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 08:51 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Now, onto what you're saying...

There isn't a reason for 73% of black children being born in single-parents, for example

This statistic is about 10 years old and it was culled incorrectly the first time. So I ask you why you state it? Just because these statistics are recorded doesn't mean that those people didn't have sufficient family networks or that the fathers/mothers (of the single parents) weren't actually participating in those children's lives. They may not have been doing it to the white family's nuclear model, but research would show that the majority of these people actually have kinship networks. As women have gained the right to exist and their own agency, perhaps they are rejecting marriage as a way to self-worth especially as they gain more access to economic mobility.

There are plenty of studies that I could site that show single parent households are no more or less likely to produce criminals than two parent households. Where the result gets semi-complicated is that complete unacknowledegment that there is already a societal bias against those who do not conform to societal norms of nuclear families.

Like I said, none of this happens in a vacuum, all across America illegitimacy rates are up. The question isn't why aren't black women marrying or having children in wedlock, it's more why is there such a push to see the non-want to marry as something that is deficient.

The climbing high school dropout rate could be argued either way, studies in 2005 on a national level produce the effect of the rates actually being decreased. Individual studies from district to district show a slight increase. As a teacher I would think that you would know why black and latino students were failing and would be aware of the want to try different education models in school tailored on the basis of ethnic background. Because, a huge part of the non-interest in school on the part of these two backgrounds in particular is lack of relevance of curriculum to their actual lives. But, even if that weren't the case, that climbing rate is about hopelessness that one can feel when they are raised in dire poverty. Or if we wanted to go even more hardcore, why is it that black students drop out of college at a higher rate in "white universities" than they do in HBCUS? What's the difference there? Environment, quality of education, estrangement from community?

My statement wasn't that those things in particular were the law's problems, my statement was that laws adversely impact the poor more than they do the middle class. All of the things you point to as forms of racism, effect people who are the most socioeconomically disadvantaged within the effected groups. You would voice your outrage for the Jena Six, for black equality as long as it benefits you, but much like white women co-opting the experiences of black women for gain the black community often forgets that it's worst for those who are not as economically stable.

If you're not a member of AP_Racism I suggest you join so you can read the comments that I'm linking to that I think specifically speak to your argument. I invite people to learn about classism in the black community, it's important. Like I said, we've been having this argument for the last 150 years, and I really do invite you to go and look at books on intra-community classism.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 10:02 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Putting my money where my mouth is to prove I'm not just making this shit up out of my ass. I only do that on Tuesdays, and today is Saturday. I wish I could link to more authors of color here, but unfortunately the problem with linking to or accessing their work online is that most of what I've read on class has been published in books.. there are limits.

Education:

The Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism

Racial pedagogy

There is a need for this as educators are finding out, when you see no value in yourself and your identity reflected in material, when you're always a victim and your history isn't relevant, it makes it damn hard to take seriously that this education benefits you.

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Putting my money where my mouth is to prove I'm not just making this shit up out of my ass. I only do that on Tuesdays, and today is Saturday. I wish I could link to more authors of color here, but unfortunately the problem with linking to or accessing their work online is that most of what I've read on class has been published in books.. there are limits.

Education:

<a href="http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/notsolittle.html"> The Myth of Black Anti-Intellectualism</a>

<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/ap_racism/203217.html">Racial pedagogy</a>

There is a need for this as educators are finding out, when you see no value in yourself and your identity reflected in material, when you're always a victim and your history isn't relevant, it makes it damn hard to take seriously that this education benefits you.

<a href="http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Sept02/blacks.oneparent.ssl.html"Finding studies that agree with my line of logic aren't really that hard</a>, but part of the issue of setting black America on the right track is taking into account that there's so much disinformation about ourselves that we believe. If, those things aren't true.. the arguments fall apart. If they're half true, we re-frame the arguments and figure out solutions. We will never fix this problem if the solution is always based on wrong input data.

<a href="http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/failingfairness.html"> Failing the Test of Fairness: Institutional Racism and the SAT</a>

<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/ap_racism/195878.html">None of the above (god I hate Malcolm Gladwell, but I'm using him anyway)</a>

About black dropout rates:

<a href="http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/1highschooldropout.cfm">Statistics from 2005</a>
<a href="http://www.afromerica.com/knowledge/education/students/dropouts.php">Drop out studies aimed at blacks.</a>
<a href="http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2007/section3/indicator23.asp">Estimate of 2007 numbers</a>
<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blackstudent_gradrates.html">Black Student College Dropout Rates</a>

More than a little of this is being done right now:

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/09/AR2008040903892.html?sid=ST2008040903921">
Behavior Study of Students Stirs Debate</a>

Class:

<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/ap_racism/152661.html">Discussion on The Color of Wealth</a> (great reading for understanding class in America)

<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/ap_racism/180559.html">An anecdotal discussion about "class values" and "race". A good book to read would be bell hook's where we stand: class matters.</a>

<a href="http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whatsmatterwithwhites.html"> What's the matter with whites?</a> For every point that he quotes here in regard to black people, think of what that means for poor blacks. If blacks who have college degrees earn 55-58 cents on the dollar when compared to their white compatriots.. Where did this people go wrong in life? I will give you a hint, it's not about the pay it's about the race and most of those blacks being paid that way are from "lower class" black backgrounds.

<a href="http://community.livejournal.com/ap_racism/141157.html"> Black Juveniles and mental health</a> Those statistics are even worse for those in the position of being economically disadvantaged across all racial lines.


Sat, May. 17th, 2008 10:11 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Crime:

It's not that we don't deserve to be punished when we break the law. It's really more does the punishment fit the crime and the answer is often no. But yes, lack of opportunity and want to get paid is indeed a recipe for criminal activity. There are only so many legal hustles in economically depressed areas.

Excuses, Excuses: How the Right Rationalizes Racial Inequity, Part Two (Criminal Justice)

How the Right Rationalizes Racial Inequality: Housing

Ghettos are Not a Game (Part Two): Racism and the Perpetuation of the Urban Poor I'm linking to this because it shows that when you start out with less, it's a lot harder to get to a little more, regardless of what decisions you make.

Locked Entry on Ap_Racism, with my opinions on Bill Cosby and it has nothing to do with "airing our dirty laundry" and everything to do with class privilege.

Overclass Blues

A little bit on the Good Negro Vs. Bad Negro Dichotomy

Upward Mortality Even when we break into those economic ceilings, we have a harder time handling it.

But the point here is, that no poor black people are not perfect victims, yes we have to take responsibility, but the way you're suggesting it isn't going to work. The reason that I'm here today is that I was bused into white schools in better parts of town, this lent validity to my education (because they were the schools of the white elite).

If I hadn't had those opportunities, who knows where I would be today and I didn't get there because I was better than, tried harder than, was more than. It doesn't give me any thrill to separate myself from those who didn't get there. I have a cousin right now who basically has the same sort of brain that I had, she has been offered a scholarship to go to one of the best girl's schools in the nation. She's not going.

Yes, fear is in her. So, I don't at all look at my people and say, "You're not trying hard enough. Take personal responsibility" That's what drug dealing is, that's capitalism, that's people taking "economic personal responsibility" in the wrong way. I see them trying, but I also know that it's incredibly hard to move away from a high mortality rates, cultural isolation, and hopelessness.

One last thing I will link to is the legendary Barbara Smith.

Class identity in the Black community is complex and often confusing. It cannot be evaluated by using measures identical to those used for whites. If the white upper class is made up of captains of corporations, there is no black equivalent. You might have the person who runs the black insurance company, but that's not the same as Ford Motor company.

During segregation, education levels did not result in the income level you'd expect. So class had more to do with values and behaviors. I describe myself as coming from a working-class family, based on income level and occupation. Most people in my family were well-educated but did manual and domestic work, not the kind of work their training was for. So your job title didn't necessarily correlate with your relative status in a community that is economically and racially oppressed. We were lower-middle-class by education and status, even while we were working-class by income.

There were also people who were genuinely middle-class in the black community, black business owners and doctors. The true black bourgeoisie I find problematic, as alien to me as I perhaps am alien to someone working as a hospital orderly. They are generally not radical, because the system worked for them, and when the system works for you, you often don't question. "I can make it, my family made it, what's so bad about living in the U.S.?"

— Barbara Smith


Sat, May. 17th, 2008 10:24 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

In other words, there's a difference between working to get comfortability (like you did). And starting from zero and I'm a little more than shocked that someone who is married to someone with a degree in history isn't making these connections. Upward mobility be damned, entire generations were forbidden from owning things, they had no intergenerational wealth to pass on, we are still reaping that disadvantage.

Poor black people are not taking any less responsibility for their lives than is the rest of America, the sooner we can understand that, the sooner we can work on actually fixing the problem. Economic wealth disadvantages aren't because people aren't working hard enough or don't want to work. Arguably, the hardest working people in America are paid the least.

Many blacks live in right to work states (that means they don't have the ability or the access for organizing unions and even when there were unions they weren't allowed to join) how do you get economic sufficiency of working class people when they are not even allowed to organize or demand better wages? One clue.. You don't.

My mother is incredibly upward mobile, she supports a family of 16 people with money to spare, she's 45, I'm 27. I know about class mobility, and I know what success looks like and I know how to get there from zero.

My mother survived against the odds and she didn't do it by herself. She did it with family support. She did it with luck, with opportunity, with community support. She did it, not by bootstrapping, but by looking at her shoes and realizing that she walked in someone else's path.

And to reiterate it doesn't make me feel better to see that you hold the opinions you do, it makes me feel worse. It makes me feel terrible to know that there are people who cannot understand my humanity through the same lens as they understand their own. But I guess you would know better than me, all my skinfolk ain't my kinfolk.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:04 am (UTC)
dottieneurotic: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

As someone who's made pretty much all of the right choices in her life (including getting a 40,000-dollar BA that I probably won't ever pay off) and is still living in the 'hood, struggling to make it out, I have to say that the assertion that I somehow haven't done what I'm supposed to is nothing short of ridiculous.

That is classism, plain and simple. You're not immune to it because you're black. Check it.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:27 am (UTC)
tanya1976: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

In all honesty, no snarkiness intended. Why did I make it out and you didn't? What makes us so different?

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:41 am (UTC)
busted_english: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Ghetto bird!!! Ghetto bird!!

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:19 am (UTC)
lt_jim_dangle: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

A lot of what I feel/think may not be popular since it may force introspection (which a lot of my community can not seem to deal with).

Your views are obviously beyond my feeble and willfully uneducated negro mind. Usin' all dem big wordz.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 12:26 am (UTC)
tanya1976: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

Don't go there with me, Jim. A lot of us don't. That's why Bill Cosby was attacked by those vocal community members. He aired "dirty laundry" that needed to be checked.

Sat, May. 17th, 2008 02:53 pm (UTC)
delux_vivens: Re: What do you say about the members of color of

A lot of what I feel/think may not be popular since it may force introspection (which a lot of my community can not seem to deal with).

So that's it? An inability to cope with *introspection*?